Discussion:
Trip Generation Information for Mixed Use Developments
(too old to reply)
Jim P.
2005-12-16 15:44:07 UTC
Permalink
Greeting All -

I'm working through some traffic issues and would love to hear
different sides...

I'm working with a developer on a new mixed use development, and our
traffic engineer is having a hard time finding Trip Gen information as
it relates to a mixed use (Residential, Golf / Recreational &
Neighborhood Commercial) development. He was able to locate recapture
information, but no trip generation.

Logic tells us (and the Town agrees) that having a *small* neighborhood
commercial area with space for some neighborhood oriented commercial
uses (under 5,000 s.f. per store - i.e. coffee shops, day care center,
small restaurants / corner deli, convenience store, dry cleaning drop
off, etc.) *should* reduce the number of trips that residents will need
to take outside of the development for certain items that will be found
at nearby shopping malls, etc.

However, having *too large* of a commercial area (such as a national
chain store) will make it an attractant for those outside the
development.

The problem we're having is that there's no definitive data out there
that says a mixed-use development will have any significant effect upon
trip generation.

The Town just wants to see some data that they can fall back on. Any
suggestions??

Thanks,

- Jim P.

P.S. - We also spoke to the Planning Director for the regional bus
operator (who was shocked that we contacted him) about putting in a
central bus stop. He said the ridership rates in that area are abysmal
to begin with, the routes needed to be reconfigured anyways, and adding
bus service will probably not make a huge difference - except for
commuters when the development is fully built out (5-9 years from now).
Robert Cote
2005-12-16 17:54:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim P.
Greeting All -
I'm working through some traffic issues and would love to hear
different sides...
I'm working with a developer on a new mixed use development, and our
traffic engineer is having a hard time finding Trip Gen information as
it relates to a mixed use (Residential, Golf / Recreational &
Neighborhood Commercial) development. He was able to locate recapture
information, but no trip generation.
Logic tells us (and the Town agrees) that having a *small* neighborhood
commercial area with space for some neighborhood oriented commercial
uses (under 5,000 s.f. per store - i.e. coffee shops, day care center,
small restaurants / corner deli, convenience store, dry cleaning drop
off, etc.) *should* reduce the number of trips that residents will need
to take outside of the development for certain items that will be found
at nearby shopping malls, etc.
However, having *too large* of a commercial area (such as a national
chain store) will make it an attractant for those outside the
development.
The problem we're having is that there's no definitive data out there
that says a mixed-use development will have any significant effect upon
trip generation.
The Town just wants to see some data that they can fall back on. Any
suggestions??
Thanks,
- Jim P.
P.S. - We also spoke to the Planning Director for the regional bus
operator (who was shocked that we contacted him) about putting in a
central bus stop. He said the ridership rates in that area are abysmal
to begin with, the routes needed to be reconfigured anyways, and adding
bus service will probably not make a huge difference - except for
commuters when the development is fully built out (5-9 years from now).
The dirty secret of "mixed use" is that they, at best, have slightly
greater trip generations than the highest of either the residential or
commercial components. Yup. It takes a little explaining but that's
the best we can hope for. Consider, for but one instance, the
demographic makeup of the residents. More two earner couples? Higher
household incomes? Both contribute to more VPD than the book values.
And the commercial elements? Upscale? Larger cachement areas as a
customer base? People don't drive past a Vons and a Ralphs to get to
another Vons but they will pass all three to get to Trader Joe's or
Whole Foods Market. And you were thinking Whole Foods or Trader Joe's
for your project weren't you? Admit it. You were hoping for at least
10% less POV traffic weren't you? Not possible even with increased
transit usage. Oh, and that transit usage? Larger roads and
significant use of high value public spaces must be dedicated. Can't
have traffic calming and buses for instance. Incompatible. There is
trip generation data out there for mixed use but the advocates of mixed
use are not going to want to provide it.
Jim P.
2005-12-16 18:18:12 UTC
Permalink
Actually - we're NOT looking for a large retailer (or even the more
'boutique' larger retailers). The property location would support
nothing more than a *very* small village green with the most *basic* of
neighborhood convenience services. Financially, a large retailer
couldn't justify the location. Economics & location would crush the
store after one year. In fact, several of the big boxers looked at the
property previously but declined due to location.

Unfortunatley Whole Foods & Trader Joes don't exist in our part of the
world - though there's a new Wegman's down the street. There other
mainstay big box retailers (Wal-Mart, Target, etc.) are all about 1/4 -
1/2 mile away in multiple shopping centers - so this area is retailed
out. Hence the decision to go with recreation & housing.
Robert Cote
2005-12-16 20:20:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim P.
Actually - we're NOT looking for a large retailer (or even the more
'boutique' larger retailers). The property location would support
nothing more than a *very* small village green with the most *basic* of
neighborhood convenience services. Financially, a large retailer
couldn't justify the location. Economics & location would crush the
store after one year. In fact, several of the big boxers looked at the
property previously but declined due to location.
Unfortunatley Whole Foods & Trader Joes don't exist in our part of the
world - though there's a new Wegman's down the street. There other
mainstay big box retailers (Wal-Mart, Target, etc.) are all about 1/4 -
1/2 mile away in multiple shopping centers - so this area is retailed
out. Hence the decision to go with recreation & housing.
Okay, understood. I think. Golf as recreation? Hey, don't get me
wrong, I golf, I live on a golf course, my daughter is a 3x varsity High
School golfer. Issue being, very low density and golf are companions.
Mixed use is about higher densities. Besides, who wants to golf only a
1/4 mile away from a Walcostdepot? Same issue another perspective; who
wishes to live/work/play 1500 feet from a Walcostdepot power center?
Nah, this is a case for traditional, boring monotonic infill. Sorry.
Seriously, sorry but sodium lamps on 150ft poles 24x7 are not
residential neighbors. This is why mixed use is so tricky. Recreation
in the case you describe is non-income producing for the municipality;
soccer, baseball, pool. Those uses are also compatible with the
infrastructure supplied by the surrounding big boxes. Youth protection,
overflow parking, peak traffic, etc.

Put in a driving range, water park, recreation fields and fast food.
Use the money to build your Metroplexualian Utopia elsewhere. Upper NYS
is not a place to experiment. It teeters on demographic collapse.
You've got the monster of NYC down below eating all your seed grain.
You've got high prices for... just about everything. Weird property
taxes inhibit investment. Weird politics inhibit assistance. What you
need is... people like me that aren't me. Package up 640 acres, zone
for golf, allow an airstrip. Before you know it people are buying 1/2
acre golf retreats anywhere nearby. So what if the Starbucks all but
closes from Thanksgiving to Patriots Day? You got your golf.
George Conklin
2005-12-18 15:44:06 UTC
Permalink
Post by Jim P.
Actually - we're NOT looking for a large retailer (or even the more
'boutique' larger retailers). The property location would support
nothing more than a *very* small village green with the most *basic* of
neighborhood convenience services. Financially, a large retailer
couldn't justify the location. Economics & location would crush the
store after one year. In fact, several of the big boxers looked at the
property previously but declined due to location.
There is also the ACCESS article which shows that small stores like
restaurants must draw from a larger area than just one small village area
because people quickly get tired of limited selection and the high costs of
small stores. If you limit parking and customers to one development, the
stores go out of business. We have in Durham an early experiment in one
such community and the designated store for 1,000 houses and apartments
could never stay in business. To keep even a small village green-style
store going, you still must have good parking and hope to draw from beyond a
small catchment area.
Post by Jim P.
Unfortunatley Whole Foods & Trader Joes don't exist in our part of the
world - though there's a new Wegman's down the street. There other
mainstay big box retailers (Wal-Mart, Target, etc.) are all about 1/4 -
1/2 mile away in multiple shopping centers - so this area is retailed
out. Hence the decision to go with recreation & housing.
Baxter
2005-12-18 20:27:09 UTC
Permalink
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Post by George Conklin
There is also the ACCESS article which shows that small stores like
restaurants must draw from a larger area than just one small village area
because people quickly get tired of limited selection and the high costs of
small stores.
Yet country or small-town restaurants continue for decades with the same set
of customers. I've seen some smaller towns where certain restaurants remain
year after year, while other restaurants can only manage a year or two.
Clearly ACCESS is wrong or Conklin is wrong in his interpretation of ACCESS.
Robert Cote
2005-12-19 04:14:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Baxter
Post by George Conklin
There is also the ACCESS article which shows that small stores like
restaurants must draw from a larger area than just one small village area
because people quickly get tired of limited selection and the high costs
of small stores.
Yet country or small-town restaurants continue for decades with the same set
of customers. I've seen some smaller towns where certain restaurants remain
year after year, while other restaurants can only manage a year or two.
Clearly ACCESS is wrong or Conklin is wrong in his interpretation of ACCESS.
Decisions, decisions. Whom to believe. "ACCESS" or "Wrong Way Leroy?"
Once again we are presented an example of new urbanist defenders
dismissing the data because they don't like the answer.
George Conklin
2005-12-20 00:12:34 UTC
Permalink
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
Post by George Conklin
There is also the ACCESS article which shows that small stores like
restaurants must draw from a larger area than just one small village area
because people quickly get tired of limited selection and the high costs
of small stores.
Yet country or small-town restaurants continue for decades with the same set
of customers. I've seen some smaller towns where certain restaurants remain
year after year, while other restaurants can only manage a year or two.
Clearly ACCESS is wrong or Conklin is wrong in his interpretation of ACCESS.
Decisions, decisions. Whom to believe. "ACCESS" or "Wrong Way Leroy?"
Once again we are presented an example of new urbanist defenders
dismissing the data because they don't like the answer.
Leroy dismisses any scholarhsip with the same old crap.
Baxter
2005-12-20 04:20:25 UTC
Permalink
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Post by Baxter
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
Post by George Conklin
There is also the ACCESS article which shows that small stores
like
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
Post by George Conklin
restaurants must draw from a larger area than just one small village
area
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
Post by George Conklin
because people quickly get tired of limited selection and the high
costs
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
Post by George Conklin
of small stores.
Yet country or small-town restaurants continue for decades with the
same
Post by Baxter
set
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
of customers. I've seen some smaller towns where certain restaurants
remain
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
year after year, while other restaurants can only manage a year or two.
Clearly ACCESS is wrong or Conklin is wrong in his interpretation of
ACCESS.
Post by Robert Cote
Decisions, decisions. Whom to believe. "ACCESS" or "Wrong Way Leroy?"
Once again we are presented an example of new urbanist defenders
dismissing the data because they don't like the answer.
Leroy dismisses any scholarhsip with the same old crap.
When presented with facts, Conklin handwaves. Again and again. He's
airborne.
Baxter
2005-12-20 04:19:11 UTC
Permalink
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Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
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Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
Post by George Conklin
There is also the ACCESS article which shows that small stores like
restaurants must draw from a larger area than just one small village area
because people quickly get tired of limited selection and the high costs
of small stores.
Yet country or small-town restaurants continue for decades with the same set
of customers. I've seen some smaller towns where certain restaurants remain
year after year, while other restaurants can only manage a year or two.
Clearly ACCESS is wrong or Conklin is wrong in his interpretation of ACCESS.
Decisions, decisions. Whom to believe. "ACCESS" or "Wrong Way Leroy?"
Once again we are presented an example of new urbanist defenders
dismissing the data because they don't like the answer.
Really?! Seems to me the opposite - I want to look at datapoints that you
want to ignore.
Sancho Panza
2005-12-20 16:22:08 UTC
Permalink
Post by Baxter
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Free software - Baxter Codeworks www.baxcode.com
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Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
Post by George Conklin
There is also the ACCESS article which shows that small stores
like
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
Post by George Conklin
restaurants must draw from a larger area than just one small village
area
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
Post by George Conklin
because people quickly get tired of limited selection and the high
costs
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
Post by George Conklin
of small stores.
Yet country or small-town restaurants continue for decades with the
same
Post by Baxter
set
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
of customers. I've seen some smaller towns where certain restaurants
remain
Post by Robert Cote
Post by Baxter
year after year, while other restaurants can only manage a year or two.
Clearly ACCESS is wrong or Conklin is wrong in his interpretation of
ACCESS.
Post by Robert Cote
Decisions, decisions. Whom to believe. "ACCESS" or "Wrong Way Leroy?"
Once again we are presented an example of new urbanist defenders
dismissing the data because they don't like the answer.
Really?! Seems to me the opposite - I want to look at datapoints that you
want to ignore.
At this stage of the game, you really ought to have your own.
Tixet
2006-05-21 21:08:50 UTC
Permalink
I know this is late, but I think that the Bay Area Trasportation Survey has
some information on mixed use trip generation. You may want to check some
of Professor Bhat's work on the BATS. I recently completed a report on
increasing the competativeness of public transit during the weekend, and
although I did not use any information on mixed use developments, I do
remember coming across some information regarding trip generation and
measures of the amount of mixed use.

Bhat has much of his work online, which may be useful.

Thank you!

Yona
Post by Jim P.
Greeting All -
I'm working through some traffic issues and would love to hear
different sides...
I'm working with a developer on a new mixed use development, and our
traffic engineer is having a hard time finding Trip Gen information as
it relates to a mixed use (Residential, Golf / Recreational &
Neighborhood Commercial) development. He was able to locate recapture
information, but no trip generation.
Logic tells us (and the Town agrees) that having a *small* neighborhood
commercial area with space for some neighborhood oriented commercial
uses (under 5,000 s.f. per store - i.e. coffee shops, day care center,
small restaurants / corner deli, convenience store, dry cleaning drop
off, etc.) *should* reduce the number of trips that residents will need
to take outside of the development for certain items that will be found
at nearby shopping malls, etc.
However, having *too large* of a commercial area (such as a national
chain store) will make it an attractant for those outside the
development.
The problem we're having is that there's no definitive data out there
that says a mixed-use development will have any significant effect upon
trip generation.
The Town just wants to see some data that they can fall back on. Any
suggestions??
Thanks,
- Jim P.
P.S. - We also spoke to the Planning Director for the regional bus
operator (who was shocked that we contacted him) about putting in a
central bus stop. He said the ridership rates in that area are abysmal
to begin with, the routes needed to be reconfigured anyways, and adding
bus service will probably not make a huge difference - except for
commuters when the development is fully built out (5-9 years from now).
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